You Can’t Hate Someone Into Believing What You Believe with Wilk Wilkinson | Episode 306

Hello, and welcome to Church and Main, a podcast for people interested in the intersection of faith, politics, and culture. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. So at the time that I'm recording this, and I'm recording it on Thursday, November 12th, it has now been nine days since that massive midterm win, which everyone's calling a blue tsunami, or as I like to call it, a blue-nami, by the Democrats. Um, I've over the last week and a half have listened to a lot of podcasts and I kind of hear over and over that this is finally a depolarizing and elect election. Um, it means that maybe the years of extreme political polarization, when everything was kind of like 50, 50 might be a thing of the past. Now, I'm a little wary of saying that polarization is over because of the win by the Democrats, because, it was only two years ago that we were all talking about the win by President Donald Trump and the Republicans, which I will also say was not that big of a win, was game-changing. But even if this wind does lessen depolarization, we still have to deal with the after effects of decades, at least since probably the 2000 election, of divides between left and right and red and blue and how everyone seems to look at each other with contempt. Earlier this year, the Pew Research Center released a disturbing survey. It found that the United States really was the only country where a majority of those surveyed believe that their fellow citizens are bad. This survey showed that among the 24 countries that were interviewed, there was only one country that really crossed over the 50% margin, and that was the United States. 53% of Americans view their fellow compatriots as bad. I don't think that that's something that clears up with one election. Now, in the face of all of this, there are actually a number of people and organizations, that I think are trying to bridge this partisan divide. There are churches, there are lots of civic organizations, and I'm going to talk to someone from one of those civic organizations today, that one being Braver Angels. This is a national organization that does work to try to bring together conservatives and liberals to engage in honest conversations. And I'm talking with someone from the organization about how we can reweave the public fabric, which has become frayed. Wilk Wilkinson is the Director of Media Systems and Operations at Braver Angels. He is a husband, father, and steadfast Christian conservative, and also the host of Derate the Hate podcast. And in this interview, we're going to talk about how he went from, in his words, a conflict-ridden dirtball to someone who has as his mission to bridge ideological divides. So here's my conversation with Wilk Wilkinson. Wilk, thanks for being on the podcast today. I'd like to start to know a little bit about who you are and your background, especially your faith background. Him. Yeah. Well, thank you, Dennis, for having me. I'm, uh, I'm very glad to be here today. And yeah, so my faith background, Dennis has, has, uh, been spotty at best, you know, when, uh, uh, when I, when I think about it, I mean, I grew up as a kid. I mean, I was baptized as a kid and, and, uh, my folks were, were not the kind of people that would, would, uh, you know, take us to church every Sunday. That's just not the way that I grew up, but we did go to Sunday school and, and my sisters and I, and went to Sunday school and, and throughout my, my, my teen years, I mean, there was a little bit of church here and there. I'd go to church with friends once in a while. And then, and then when I was in the service, maybe a little bit more. As an adult, Well, Dennis, I had a very rough relationship with religion and God and things, and. I had so much anger and so much animus. From different things that I had experienced growing up that I was sure for a long time that God hated me. There was a lot of time where I was like, you know what, if you hate me this much, God, just take me out of here. And I'm glad he didn't because I realized, not only did I realize that there is a lot more to faith than, you know, hey, what can you do for me, God? But I realized that a lot of the troubles that we find in our life are temporary. But God is forever, and our faith in God is forever. So I'm a Christian. I absolutely love the Lord. I'm a fallible human being like all of us are. I'm a sinner. I recognize that daily. I pray daily. And I'm glad all those times that I told God, if you hate me this much, take me out of here. And I also realized that God didn't hate me. A lot of that hate was me hating me. But I hope that answers your question because it's spotty, it's complicated. You know. There's one of those relationship statuses, right, where people are asked, you know, what kind of relationship or what's your relationship status? And they're like, it's complicated. It's complicated, yeah. Well, a lot of my life, Dennis, my relationship with God has been complicated, but I love the Lord, the Lord loves me, and we're on much better terms now than we've ever been. This kind of flows into one of the reasons i wanted to have you on the podcast is that um there was an article about you in on the braver angels website um the organization that you're a part of that um, kind of talks about your journey as how you describe yourself as a conflict ridden dirt ball um yeah, which i got that kind of like oh i want to know more about that and then how that led to where you are today. Um. How would, you know, where did you get, how did you describe yourself in that way as a dirt ball and what did that mean and how did that kind of lead you to where you are now? Oh, okay, Dennis, that, uh, that is a funny thing. And, and yeah, the, the article, uh, accentuated that. And when I was growing up, I, you know, when I was a little kid, I was, I was bullied quite a bit, um, and, uh, and, and bullied for various reasons, but I was a very poor, uh, I mean, we were, you know, not in abject poverty, but we grew up very poor. We didn't have the same things that a lot of other kids did. And I make the joke that, you know, it didn't matter what side of the tracks that we were on. It was always the wrong side of the tracks. And, you know, kids notice things, right? And, and when, um, when you're always wearing hand-me-down clothes or, or, you know, you're wearing, you know, uh, before torn up jeans were, were the fad and, and kind of, kind of cool things. But, you know, you got holes in your jeans and, and you got the cheap plastic shoes instead of the, the, the, the nice leather, you know, Jordans or, or whatever. I mean, kids notice that thing, you know, and, and that's, I'm going to be honest. That's where a lot of my animus came from is because of the bullying that I received for, for, you know, being one of the poor kids or, or being on the wrong side of the tracks. And we moved around a lot and, and things like that. And, and I always just fit in a lot better with, you know, I go back to the, one of my favorite books that I read growing up and I, and I read it over and over and over again was The Outsiders. You know, and they talked about the Socias and the, and the, and the, and the preps and, you know, the greasers and, you know, the, the, the, or the, the Socias and the, and the greasers and things like that. Well, well, you know, I, I, I, Being a poor kid that was just very, you know, much an outdoor kid, you know, sometimes people call you a dirt ball. So I just started to embrace it. And I think, you know, there was at one point I had. My aunt make me a shirt with like bubble paint or something like that that said number one dirt ball on it. And it got a lot of reactions. So then I started wearing it as a gym shirt so that people would see it every day instead of, you know, instead of just that one time that I wore it and things like that. But I was just, I was like, you know what, I'm not going to let those things get to me. Even though probably deep down inside as a kid, there was something there that really bugged me. But I'm like, you know what, I'm not going to give them the satisfaction of winning this. I'm going to just embrace it. So I just started calling myself a dirtball. And, uh, and as I, as I grew up, I just kind of started doing the same kinds of things, but, but, uh, you know, got into a lot of fights was, was just kind of an angry and ornery person. And, and, uh, and then later on in life realized that wasn't doing any good. So we'll, uh, we'll change things up a bit. And, uh, now I do something very, very different. And how did that how did you kind of end up in braver angels in that way and and, you kind of talk about how in some ways this was not what you expected but you are now part of this organization no that's right dennis i uh, i i was not expecting this thing at all and and certainly didn't expect to to be doing this type of work for a living now but but uh back in 2020 i had i had started a podcast, derate the hate, uh, which I, I still do today. I've, you know, got 300 and almost 350 episodes out now, I think, but the, um, The podcast initially was based a lot on mindset, my own personal journey from, you know, from anger and animus to a lot more calm space in my life. But I was still very politically polarized. Even though I had stemmed a lot of my anger and things, I was still quite polarized. I'm a very conservative guy, a blue-collar conservative who lives in a very, let's say, blue state, you know, here in Minnesota. And I had, I had been working through a number of things and, and I had developed this very poorly designed t-shirt company where I was like, if I can just show, you know, liberals how wrong they are about everything with these snarky comments, they'll come around to my way of thinking. Well, that's a very, very poor business model. It's a very, you know, when we think about social sciences and, and the way that people actually change their minds and things like that, that is definitely not one of them. It's a case study in everything that you shouldn't do to try and, you know, open people's minds to the possibility that they might be wrong. But I would get a lot of hate mail for that, for those t-shirts and things like that that I was promoting online. And I had the podcast at the same time where I was, you know, talking about, you know hateful mindsets and things like that and, and and then 20 early 2021 a couple local ambassadors for braver angels reached out to me, and said hey we'd love to come on your podcast and talk about this organization braver angels which i had never heard of dennis at the time i didn't even know that the polarization space or the depolarization space or the bridge building space whatever you want to label it i didn't even know it existed, and they came on the podcast we talked about that organization and I signed up as a member that day. And as a, as a conservative who. I mean, a very opinionated conservative, but a conservative who really wanted to be in many ways a part of the solution instead of part of the problem. I just went in with with wide open ears and the desire to learn a lot of things that I just didn't know and, started having a lot of conversations, started doing a lot of one on ones, a lot of focus groups and and just trying to figure out, all these things that I just didn't even know existed. And have conversations with people across the aisle. That I was led to believe were not just wrong, but in many ways were evil or ill-intentioned or, you know, or just at the very best, just completely, you know, dumb. And I'm like, all this stuff that I've been believing is not accurate. These are not evil people. These are not stupid people. These are people with, with, uh, with a lot of the same, you know, intentions that I have for, for the beliefs that I have and hold the same values that I have. Just, just see the world through a different lens. And, and, um, and so I kept on volunteering for things and doing, uh, doing different things with the organization and talking more about the organization. And, uh, I, I very quickly abandoned, I may have actually, I'm pretty certain I had abandoned the t-shirt idea before I'd even encountered braver angels. But, uh, but, but the reality was, is, is, you know, I, I, I learned that I didn't have to, to change me. I just, the only thing I really had to change was the idea that my certainty was standing in the way of a lot of, of really positive growth. And, uh, and here I am several years later after, you know, five years as a volunteer, they, uh, asked me to come on board as, as their director of media operations. Uh, so I stepped away from a, a very successful career in trucking and transportation. I was in operations management for several years and I was a truck driver before that for, for about a decade and a half. Stepped away from that to do what I feel is a true calling to try and help heal a country and fix a world that I didn't break. Why do you think that polarization is such a big problem right now in our culture? I think there is such a kind of gulf between by what you would consider liberal and conservative. And as you have said and talked about, it seems like each side sees the other not simply just as a different, you know, but you have a different opinion. Let's try to work out something. But it's like, well, you're evil. And it kind of ends up in this culture where we're seeming to, you know, troll each other or have someone cry liberal tears or all that stuff. So what do you think has kind of led to that kind of thing that we are so apart in that way? Yeah, well, Dennis, that's a very, it's an incredibly good question, and it's a very complex question with an even more complex answer. But I think there's a lot of different things that contribute to that. You know, tribalism is as old as, you know, the human condition itself, is as old as we are as humans. You know, you go back, way back to the days when, you know, trace us all the way back to the beginning and tribes were very important for our survival, right? And staying within a tribe is sometimes the difference between life and death. And being able to, you know, conform to whatever that tribe was was very important because if you were cast out, you might now not survive, right? A very different time where the importance of a tribe for physical survival is not nearly as important. But we live in a time where people fear social death more than they do fear physical death. And that's a hugely problematic thing for any number of reasons. But how did we get there? How did we get from the old days of tribalism and needing that tribe to maintain our physical safety to now where people fear more, of a social death than they do a physical death? Well, I think there's any number of reasons that that's happened, Dennis, but in this age of internet ecosystem, and all the online interactivity and it's kind of this faux interaction instead of actually real interpersonal interaction, you know, we live in a time where people are more... We live in an age where people are more connected now than they've ever been, but they feel more alone than they've ever felt. And that's problematic. But people are also more easily manipulated by forces that wish to keep us divided. And you've seen over the past, you know, several decades, and certainly in the past, you know, decade, where the media and politicians and social media algorithms reward behavior, that triggers outrage and triggers contempt. You know, when the amygdala, you know, they're just going to the brain side of it. When the trigger, when the amygdala is triggered and we were like, oh, got to do this, got to click, got to click, got to keep on rolling, got to keep on rolling. You know, people, that's what, that's what generates clicks. That's what generates engagement. And when something clicks, generates clicks and engagement, it generates revenue. So people have learned that that possibility is there, and they've capitalized on it at the expense of people's mental well-being and our societal well-being. So, you know, you can go to the rider and the elephant example from Jonathan Haidt, or you can go to the idea that, you know, just breaking it down in its most simple of terms where... Where people, you know, they want to be part of something bigger than themselves, and they are often inundated by so much of us versus them, tribalism online and the incentives for, you know, stick with us. But to stick with us, there's a purity test. And to stick with us, you must attack them. Um, so I think that, that really is the, uh, is the gist of it, that there are, there are forces and very well-funded and, and, uh, very profitable forces out there that wish to keep us scared, mad, and aggrieved. I talk about fear, outrage, and grievance all the time. I've got a book that's going to be coming out hopefully later this year called Clearing the Fog, How Fear, Outrage, and Grievance is Destroying the United States of America and Why the Silent Majority Must Speak. Because there are so many people that are sick and tired of the fog, the fear, outrage, and grievance that they've just checked out. Not out of apathy, but out of their just own self-preservation. And I don't blame them, but it's going to take them getting back involved to save this thing that this great American experiment that, uh, that we've all, uh, you know, we all hold dear. What does it take to reach out to people, especially people who are different from us? Because I think one of the things that I've noticed a lot is how we immediately have this picture of who the other side is. And, I've always tried to be one, not always perfect on it, of how do we see what is it that we may have in common? What is it And how is that other person on the other side that I may disagree with a human being? And one of the things that I remember, a few years ago, I was part of a, as a pastor, a preaching cohort of pastors from around the country and across the theological spectrum. And that included people like myself, who is gay, and people who had very different views on that issue. And yet, we were able to come together, we were able to pray for one another. And I think there was a way that we were able to kind of have things in common, that you just don't see in the wider culture and so. How do we find that way of linking with someone that we may disagree with? And I think that's the other thing is that disagreement isn't a bad thing. But how do we still see that other person on the other side as a human being? Right. Well, the first thing that I would say, Dennis, is courage. I mean, and to your point about disagreement not being a bad thing, I think in many cases it's a very good thing. Disagreement is, you know, we don't want to be all like-minded automatons because disagreement and the disagreement and dissent is how we are able to course correct when things are going poorly, right? And we've seen throughout history, there have been many, many times where things that have been the accepted norm, are no longer the accepted norm because people were able to peacefully disagree and work through their differences and work together across differences to then change the Overton window about what is acceptable. So there's a number of things there, but I would say that the first thing is courage, because, it's very difficult for people to step outside of their comfort zone and say, I am going to intentionally engage with somebody that I know thinks differently than I do. Or, you know, to take it to the next level, it's going to take courage to step into the arena or step into a conversation with somebody that, you know, not that I just disagree with, but somebody that may have contempt for who I am as a person. How do we do that? Well, the first thing is, is I would contend that the first thing that we have to do is be able to listen to that person to find out who they are as a human being. You know, I also sit on the board of advisors for an organization called the ProHuman Foundation. And the ProHuman mindset is very important in the sense that, you know, we are all unique individuals. But we all have very different, you know, we're all very unique in the sense that we have different, you know, maybe we have different values, we have different this, we have different that. That's fine. We could focus on our differences, but let's not focus on what's different. Let's focus on what, you know, brings us together. You know, we all share the need for, you know, clean water. You know, we want a safe place to raise our children. We want a warm bed to sleep in at night. We want a safe home where we don't have to worry about, you know, lions, tigers, and bears coming to get us in the middle of the night, right? I mean, these are very pro-human things. And if we start with the pro-human mindset as the cornerstone of maybe we have nothing else in common, nothing else at all, except for the fact that we want food in our belly. We don't want clean water to drink. We want a comfortable place to sleep at night and a safe place to raise our kids. If that's all we've got in common, we've got a cornerstone. We've got a place to start our conversations. But what we're going to find then, Dennis, is we're going to find that we have a lot more in common than what separates us. And I don't care who you are or who I am. I mean, white guy, black guy, you know, truck driver, pastor, gay guy, straight guy, whatever. It doesn't matter. We are going to have a lot more in common than what separates us. Fact. It's literally, it happens every time it's done. And, and so, you know, the reality, and this is what I've said, I make this post every single day. It's something that I've, I've come up with a long time ago. But the fact is, is we cannot hate somebody into believing what we believe. And we cannot hate somebody into seeing the world that we do, the way to see the world, the way that we do. You know, we all view the world through a different lens. Every one of us as an individual will view the world through a different lens. You do and I do because we are different. We grew up different ways. We've got different backgrounds. We, you know, we may have cultural differences, whatever. It doesn't matter. So we view the world through a different lens. But the reality is, is I can't hate you into believing what I believe. And I can't hate you into seeing the world the way that I do and vice versa. So let's not focus on the differences and the different, the things that we see differently. Let's start with what we see, you know, the ways that we see the world in similar ways. And then we've got a place to work from. We've got a foundation. But when we step into that arena, we step into that conversation with somebody that we know sees the world in a different way, it's going to take courage. It takes courage. It takes being able to say, I'm going to do this for the greater good. I'm going to step outside of my comfort zone because I know, as you know, in my mind, I know that all growth really comes outside of the comfort zone. And I want to grow as a person. So I'm going to do this for me and I'm going to find that there's a lot more that you and I have in common than anything that would ever separate us. As we are about a month away from the midterm elections, politics, especially, of course, in some ways, we've been kind of dancing around it, but it tends to be something that at least now, these days, draws us more apart. Or how can we in this time, especially as we're heading up to the election and after, be bridge builders, be ways of that, you know, yes, we may vote differently, but find ways of, again, finding that thing that we have in common. Yeah. Yeah, another great question. And I think it really comes down to not reducing somebody to just the most basic of things, right? I mean, don't reduce somebody's entirety, the entirety of their identity to what they believe in terms of politics. And don't reduce somebody to, I mean, I think we all, as human beings, Dennis. Are hurt by and in many ways disgusted by the idea that people reduce us to, just a very small part of who we are as people, right? And when it comes to politics, if you know that your neighbor voted differently than you do or whatever, you know, don't just assume that you know all the reasons that they voted the way that they voted. You know, if anything, engage in that conversation and ask them why. You know, ask them why. Because people, Um, you know, if people ask me why I voted for Donald Trump, uh, you know, I've got reasons, you know, I, I'm not, uh, I'm not, I'm not a Trump fan. I, I do, I do not like many of the things that he says and does. Uh, but, uh, but when faced with the choice of, of A or B, I had to pick one and I picked the one that I, I, I thought that was going to, um, you know, obviously do more in terms of what I wanted out of politics than the other. And there's a lot of reasons why I get into that. But I know that there's a lot of people out there too that voted the other way, you know, whether it be for Kamala or Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton. You know, I know people in my circle that voted for those folks. And I could never bring myself to where they were and why they did it, but at least I know why, and I engaged with curiosity instead of just assuming, that they did out of some kind of evil intent or whatever, right? But never assume that you know why somebody did something without first asking them what it is about your life experience, what it is about the lens of. You know, the way that you view the world made this make sense for you. If you engage with genuine curiosity, you don't have to get to where they are mentally to say, oh yeah, no, I could have done that too. You don't have to get there, but what you have to do is see that person as a human being who sees the world differently than you do and maybe has a few different wants, desires, or needs than you do. And that was enough to tip the scale to say, well, I'm doing this rather than that. You know, it's, it's really a matter of, of engaging with curiosity instead of contempt and engaging with empathy instead of disdain. I mean, there's, there's just so much that's happening in the world and people do things for various different reasons. And many of the times it's just because they view the world a bit different than you do, but that doesn't mean that they're an evil person. And it doesn't mean that you have to hold them in contempt for, uh, for, for what they've done. Yeah, I think one of the things that is fascinating to me and that I'm beginning to understand about how we bring people together is really to have a sense of curiosity. And I think that that has been lost in our culture. We're not curious. We're not interested in understanding why someone believes the way that they believe. Um we kind of jump from that into, as you've said contempt that and and in the sense that we already know why they they think the way that they think when in reality we don't we don't know why, they did that's right that's why we need to have some sense of curiosity, no that's absolutely right and and just recognizing that. It's never really an a versus b option there's a lot more nuance to all things. And when we reduce complex issues down to rigid binaries, uh, we all end up losing Dennis. And, and I think, I think, uh, I think most reasonable people can agree on that. There's far more nuance. There's, it's, it's never as clear cut and black and white as just A versus B. We all, like I said, we all have different reasons for doing the things that we do and engaging with somebody with the question of why in genuine curiosity, and then listening to them with intention. I call it listening with intention. It takes courage. We call it at Braver Angels. We call it courageous citizenship because stepping into that arena and engaging somebody with curiosity and figuring out the why behind who they are, it takes courage, but it makes a lot of sense. And the alternative is not working out well. No, it's not at all. You know, you mentioned, and this is the second time about courage in the role of this. What is it about courage or what is it about the fact that we need courage that is so important for you? Yeah, well, I think, and the reason that we call it courageous citizenship is because, you know, going back to the point of, you know, how do we step into a conversation we know with somebody that we know disagrees with us? You know, the dialogue part is only a step in that process, Dennis. And maybe that courage is what it takes to take that first step and get into the dialogue. But ultimately, what it's about is it's about building across differences, you know, being able to build across difference and work together to solve complex common cause problems together to produce the tangible results that we need for self-governance. That is that is really what it comes down to is is do we want to continue to live in a world where we govern ourselves or do we want to live in, you know an autocracy you know an autocracy or some kind of authoritarian regime where we are all told what to do, um and told what to think Well. There's no question there for me. It's I want to continue to live in a world where I get to choose what's best for me and my family. And you, Dennis, get to choose what's best for you and your family. And we as individuals can still work together despite our differences. That starts with courage. That starts with the ability to say, I may not agree with this person, but I'm going to choose to act right now. Instead of wait and react when things go sideways. I'm going to act and get into this conversation or I'm going to act to work together across differences to solve our common cause problems because when things go sideways, then it's typically too late. Mm-hmm. Where's the role of, I mean, I think one of the things that you're bringing up is the role of listening in here. And do you think that we've kind of lost that art or, or, or is it that we listen to react instead of listening to, to kind of for knowledge? Yeah, well, I think that's exactly right. And I think you nailed it there, Dennis, is a lot of times people now are listening with the intention to respond instead of listening with the intention to understand. You know, this is one of the seven habits of highly effective people that Stephen Covey talked about, was that ability. Have we lost that skill as a society? I think many people have, but just, you know, anything that can be unlearned can be relearned, you know? And it's just, you know, we call it like strengthening the civic muscle, right? Where it's something that the more you do it, the easier it becomes. And, you know, again, stepping outside of your comfort zone and then listening, not with the intention to just simply respond, but listening with the intention to truly understand and engaging with genuine curiosity. Um, these are all, these are all skills that can be learned and they, they can be taught, they can be learned, they can be, uh. They, and, and just like so many other things, you know, I don't care whether it's, it's a task that you perform at your job or a thing that you do as an athlete or, or, you know, uh, the way that, you know, you give a sermon as a pastor. These are all things that the more that you practice them, the more easy and more natural it becomes. And it's so important that we encourage people and starting at a very young age, but encourage people to be healthy. The example that they want to see in other people. So when I engage with somebody, I want to make sure that, that I am listening with intention and they know that I am listening with intention and genuine curiosity. And I am thinking about things that I can ask this person to really understand who they are as a human being. And then when, you know, if I set that example in all of my interactions, there is a very good chance that the people that I'm interacting with will start to do that in their life as well. I think as a society, going back to the Gandhi quote, you know, be the change that you want to see in the world. This is an absolutely integral part of how we move forward as a successful self-governing society. Where do you think we are headed as a culture in the next few years um, it's been a rough i would say maybe decade of in our culture in america and how we learn to try to get along froze up but i i didn't get anything. I didn't get anything past where do you think we're going in the next couple years yep i just saw that um, i just was i was trying to say was that the last few years have been a rather rough decade and um probably the next few years in the immediate future are going to be rather bumpy, so where do you see signs of hope um where people are trying to bridge the gap, even in the midst of a lot of of, incentives to divide and conquer in some ways. Well, I see a lot of signs of hope, Dennis. I'm constantly seeing them in the space that I work in and the places where I engage with people. I see a lot of signs of hope. I mean, there are hundreds, well, there's thousands of organizations out there, you know, filled with hundreds and even thousands of members who have a genuine and desire to make the world a better place. This is, and this is going to be another thing. I know I talked about the amygdala earlier, but I want to talk about the reticular activating system. You know, there's certain people out there that, you know, will look at a flower, in a field full of weeds and they'll see that flower. And then there's others that'll catch that one weed in a field full of flowers and they'll focus on that. We get more of, and we see more of, that which we focus on. And our brain can only focus on so many things at a time. So many people will look at the world that we live in today and only see the examples of those that are trying to divide us and those that are trying to, you know, use that fog model, that fear, outrage, and grievance that I talk about so often. And that's all they see because they don't see all the great people doing all the great work out there and the examples of of people in their everyday lives that are doing the bridging work and doing the great civic actions. But when you start to focus on the things that are going right and you start to focus on the people that are out there doing this incredible work, you'll start to see more of them. And that's why I encourage people to get involved in organizations like Braver Angels, because we are, I mean, we have thousands of members in states across the nation doing this incredible work. And when you start to see it, you start to see it more and more and more. That's what that reticular activating system does. I do have hope because, there are incredible people in every community around the country. David Brooks called them weavers. And, you know, David and I have talked about this, but there's people in every community who, you know, they're the first person to put their name on a list, when the community needs something, right? You know, and, and I think about that, that old phrase where you're the five people that you, you spend the, you're the average of the five people that you spend the most time with. Well, start to find those people, Dennis. And I encourage people to find the people in your community that are doing these incredible things. Um, and, and you'll start to see more of them, but that grows. The more that we water that plant, the more that that plant's going to grow. And I think we have to, because just like a mustard seed, right? We talk about the story in the Bible of the mustard seed and how one tiny little mustard seed can grow into this massive thing, you know, if cultivated and worked the right way. Um, you know, uh, the, the, um. There's so much good happening in the world, and I see signs of hope every day. And, you know, going back to where our conversation began, you know, my relationship with the Lord, my relationship with faith, you know, I see a lot of people that are doing just incredible work, you know, trying to live like Jesus lived. And walk in the way of, you know, the apostles of Jesus and things like that. There's just so much good out there that people need to focus less on those things that divide us and focus more on what we have in common and focus on what they can do to be the example that they want to see in the world. So if people want to know more about you, especially because you have a podcast yourself, and also the work of Braver Angels, where should they go? Yeah, so to find out more about me and my work specifically, I would encourage people to go to deratethehate.com. That is where they'll find the podcast. They can then branch out to different links and social medias from there. But that's D-E-R-A-T-E, deratethehate.com. And then more importantly, join the movement to make courageous citizenship the honored norm. That is our mission at Braver Angels through any number of ways, skill building, convening, collaborative action, making courageous citizenship the honored norm. It is uh it is vital to the importance of of the strength of our democratic republic and and i would say go to that uh go to braverangels.org uh, to to learn more about what we're doing join that movement and uh it's it's very, very inexpensive it's it's like twelve dollars a year uh find your local alliance get involved in your local alliance and just like all things the more that you do, the more that you do, the better you're going to feel, right? Strengthen that civic muscle. But you got to put in the work to do it. And we're doing incredible things at Braver Angels. And we would love to have everybody get involved in this movement to make courageous citizenship the honored norm and engage with curiosity over contempt and to make the world a better place. Right. Well, Wilk, thank you so much for taking the time. I hope to have you back on in the near future to talk a little bit more about this and some other and other topics. So, but thank you for today. Dennis, it's been a great pleasure and I'd love to come back anytime. Just let me know. As usual, I will put the links to, uh, Wilk's, uh, podcast and his, um, also his, um, sorry, his sub stack, um, that is also called derate the hate. Um, I'm also going to put in a link for the Washington post article on the Pew research center, uh, survey that, um, and there will be a link also to, an episode I did earlier this year to talk about that exact survey with Michael Baharain. And so I think that that was a really good interview that I had with Michael. And so I want to put that link in as well. As usual, if you want to chat with me, let me know what's going on, I'd love to hear from you. And you can email me at dennis at churchandmaine, all one word, dot org. If you want to know more about this podcast, listen to past episodes, or donate, check me out, churchandmaine.org. I do also have a sub stack that is churchandmaine.substack.com, where I share articles that I have written. I also try to put up these episodes usually about a week after they go live. So you can also find out there. You can make a donation there as well, five bucks a month, $60 a year. So that is it for this episode of Church in Maine. I'm Dennis Sanders, your host. As I always like to say, thank you so much for listening. Take care, everyone. Godspeed. And I will see you very soon.